The following is a transcript of an interview I did with singer/songwriter/author, Jim Duchesneau on August 11, 2020. You can view the YouTube video here.
Hello. My name is Barbara Lewis with “Singing After Forty.” Today I’m going to be interviewing Jim Duchesneau, a successful educational recording songwriter, a former vocal student of mine, and a great friend. Jim has worked mostly as a children’s educational recording songwriter. He’s recorded 16 albums, he’s been nominated twice for Juno Awards. He’s performed over 2,000 concerts for close to a million people, and he’s sold a ton of CDs.
Seven years ago, following a series of significant losses, Jim unexpectedly spiralled into a deep, suicidal depression that literally changed his life overnight. In his own words he writes, “The past seven years have been a crazy journey, from complete desolation to the desire to write and record songs once again, as well as to do something out of my range of thinking which is writing a book. Jim says that he hopes that these songs, which helped him a lot during recovery, and the story that he recounts in his book, will make it easier for someone who’s going through a similar experience.
Here’s the chat that I had recently with Jim. (At the end, we play one of his most powerful songs). I hope you enjoy what he has to say, his music, and the interview.
Hello Jim. It’s so great to see you. You’re looking really good. I enjoyed reading your book so much and listening to your songs. They are beautiful, beautiful songs and you know they affected me, too. You said in your book that the writing of these songs really helped you in overcoming your severe, deep depression. Can you tell us about that?
Jim Duchesneau: Well the songs actually served two purposes. The first one is they actually got me going again on a creative basis. When I got hit with the depression it was very severe, it was very quick, and it wiped out every ounce of meaning of everything that had ever been important to me in my life. It was hard. And one of the things it knocked out was writing songs, singing songs, that whole idea. I’d been writing and singing songs and recording them for thirty-five years. It was a long career. When it got wiped out it was like, Oh, okay, I guess I’m never going to sing again. I don’t need to write a song again. My life is over. That’s what it was. When I did start writing again it brought a glimmer of hope back into my life. And then secondly, I ended using these songs on a daily basis, to help heal various things that I’m dealing with at the moment.
Barbara Lewis: When you fell first into this depression were you able to write songs right away or did it take a while for you to feel that desire again? And how did that desire return?
Jim Duchesneau: Actually…
Barbara Lewis: Is it a long story?
Jim Duchesneau: No, I’m going to keep it…do you know the word ‘tangent’? It was created for me.
Barbara Lewis: I love it.
Jim Duchesneau: Yes, I’m a tangent person. I can go off on one and then go into 100 more of them.
Barbara Lewis: I’m going to pull you back.
Jim Duchesneau: What happened is when I spiralled I went into isolation. I didn’t realize it was happening but I isolated myself almost 100% for two solid years. I didn’t know what else to do. I was having suicidal thoughts on a daily basis. I absolutely believed my life was over. I believed that it would be so much better for everyone around me if I wasn’t there…and all of these thoughts were the result of an illness, which is severe depression. The thoughts that are created by severe depression are basically all lies.
An excerpt from Jim’s song “Don’t Isolate Yourself”
Don’t isolate yourself
Don’t cut off all your ties
When life gets sad and lonely
When truth has turned to lies
Don’t hide yourself away
Don’t do it all alone
I studied Psychology in university. That was sort of my major. And I had no idea there was something wrong with me. I simply knew my life was over. Basically, I slept sixteen hours a day. I went to the pool almost daily, and I would swim until it hurt. It turned out I was tearing both my shoulders after doing the same stroke over and over and I watched television for hours. I’d watch comedies. I’d just sit there in a…staring at them. That’s all I did for two years. So no, I never thought I would write again.
Barbara Lewis: And then somehow, maybe you’ll tell us, you ended up in therapy. In therapy that led you in a whole new direction and part of that was a musical direction.
Jim Duchesneau: I guess I was fortunate that something happened to me that to most people you’d go ‘Oh, my God, I can’t believe this happened to me.’ I had a heart attack while swimming in the pool one day. So that is a big thing to happen on a chemical basis on your brain. Whatever happens. So, three months in or four months in I saw my G.P. one day and I said, ‘Hey, I just had the idea that maybe therapy could help me.’ It was like a light goes on and maybe this could possibly have helped. That was the beginning of me getting help and that she moved me out very slowly but moved me out of a very dark place to where I am today. A much brighter place.
An excerpt from Jim’s song,
“Help Me Find My Way”
Don’t know how I lost my vision
Don’t know how I got so blind
World went grey and lost its shimmer
Though the colors of life
Are still mine to find
Barbara Lewis: So, when you did go into therapy what happened? I think I remember the story that your therapist was the person with whom you first started to write songs again.
Jim Duchesneau: Actually, she became my therapist a little later on but at the beginning she had created course that was offered through the Mental Health area of her hospital. The course was called ‘Be Your Best Self’.
Barbara Lewis: Right.
Jim Duchesneau: I loved the course. In it she talked about…in it there was a session (Should this be session or Section?)on Mindfulness. Another on the Multiple Intelligence Theory, which which I believe I was the first person in Canada to actually use the theory in 1987. So, there were little bits of excitement that were actually occurring. But one day, during the class, I thought, ‘Wow, you were an educational songwriter. Imagine if this course had songs to go with each of the Sessions.’ And my brain, remembering that that was something I did and maybe I could still do it. I don’t care if I ever do it again, but I could do it…and maybe I could help others. So, I approached her and said maybe we could try it. It’s not going to hurt either of us if we just tried it. And we very quickly wrote two songs together. She’s super-intelligent, super-talented. She has a sense of rhythm and rhyme that’s up there with the best. She’d read everything about psychology that they’re using in today’s world. She had the language to help us write songs that could possibly work for the people in the class.
Barbara Lewis: So here you are together creating these songs and then what happened?
Jim Duchesneau: We actually only wrote two together. After that she became ridiculously busy so what I did is I said how about if I start writing the songs to go with the Sections. I’ll bring them to you and we’ll see what you think of them. She had a great sense of seeing ‘well, this word doesn’t work so well here, let’s move this sentence around. Let’s put in a bridge’. Then I’d go home, and I’d record it on Garage Band which is voice and guitar and I started singing these songs at home. And I was so surprised because I’d sing a song two or three times and whatever I was experiencing…if it was anxiety or just really deep sadness or whatever it was, I noticed that my mood would lift and very often I would work through whatever challenge I was having.
An excerpt from Jim’s song,
“What do you highlight?”
What do you highlight?
What do you tend to see?
In every story
What do you highlight?
Is it the happy or the sad?
Is it the good or the bad?
Barbara Lewis: So, this is the period of time when your songs were actually healing you of your depression? Did you feel changes in your body as you listened to or performed songs for yourself?
Jim Duchesneau: I could actually feel it almost immediately. Given I would sing the song once or twice and I would sense a change occurring. It was wonderful for me.
Barbara Lewis: A chemical change in your body? You felt that. That’s very…you must be very attuned to your body to feel that.
Jim Duchesneau: Yes. We know that drugs can do the same thing. It can…you know, people take antidepressants…I’m one of them…and that can affect what your feelings are. People will have a glass of wine, okay? One glass of wine and you very quickly feel a change happening. That is a chemical change in your body. The songs were doing the same for me.
Barbara Lewis: Yes. Now you’ve put it in a context I understand better. That it was kind of like having a glass of wine. It’s fascinating that songs…I mean we read about this. We hear about how music can heal, and it changes us, but here’s an example of it being so clear that as you listened and sang your songs to yourself, your mood, your body, was changing. Can you give us an example of a song that made a big difference to you?
Jim Duchesneau: The first one that I noticed quite a distinct change was a song called Don’t Isolate Yourself. I wrote the song because I was hoping to say to people out there ‘I made a mistake’. First of all, I didn’t know I was isolating myself, I didn’t know I had a disease. I didn’t know it was treatable. I was basically in a fog and if you can recognize that maybe you are, listen to the song. When you’re very ill, you someone to just hold your hand and hear what you have to say, without judgment. But just to hear it. Therapy did that for me. So, I wrote that very first song and I love the melody. I like the lyrics. Interestingly enough for the first few weeks I would sing it on a daily basis. I would choke up because every time I sang it would remind me how lonely that two-year period was when I didn’t know I was isolating myself and I didn’t know I had an illness that was treatable.
An excerpt from Jim’s song,
“Don’t Isolate Yourself”
Don’t cut off all your ties
When life gets & lonely
When truth has turned to lies
Don’t hide yourself away
Don’t do it all alone
Don’t hide yourself away
It’s really at these lowest times
You truly need someone
Barbara Lewis: Farther on your recovery from depression, is there a song that stands out for that period of time? Don’t Isolate Yourself was early on. Something that’s a little bit farther into your recovery?
Jim Duchesneau: There’s one I used…of the thirty songs I wrote I used all of them, but there’s one I used over and over and over. And it’s actually a technique used in Psychology and Therapy. It’s called Act As If. It’s sort of like the concept of, ‘Oh, just pretend you can do it’, but ‘just pretend’ has a negative connotation. Acting as if…they believe does things to the brain that makes the brain believe ‘Oh, I can do it!’. And my first one I remembered doing was the fact that I could swim, so act as if you’re a swimmer. So, you know I’m not a great swimmer or anything but act as if you can do it, and I did that. After the heart attack, it was like, well, okay, act as if you’re an athlete. It’s anything but what I am, but I went, okay, if I act like II am one maybe at some point I’ll feel it.
An excerpt from Jim’s song,
“Act As If’
Do you find yourself paralyzed?
Unable to move?
Does your brain have you frozen?
Stuck in a groove?
Remember to breathe
Could be something you need
Just act as if and you might succeed
Barbara Lewis: I wonder if it was the ‘act as if’ idea that led you in to writing a book?
Jim Duchesneau: Oh, you bit it was. Writing a book was an absolute no-no in my brain. What happened with me and the depression is that one of the first things I felt was that I was probably the stupidest person in the world. I trusted people. They betrayed me. And here I was, the result of me being just not very smart. At the same time, I knew I was creative. Interestingly enough I could write two hundred songs, I could record a hundred and some odd of them. They were used all across the country to help kids learn French. Yet, I wasn’t very smart. So, the concept of writing a book was ‘absolutely not’. Now I did have the idea for a book, and I went, oh, if only I could find someone to do it. The fact is I don’t know anybody who could do it, so one day I want, ‘why don’t you just try?’ So, you’ve got these…not voices in your head…answers…going, ‘Are you kidding? You’re an idiot. You really think you can write a book? So, you’ve written a few songs. Ha-ha. You’re very funny.’ And then the other voice going ‘Why can’t I just try?’ ‘Didn’t I just tell you? You’re an idiot’.
Barbara Lewis: What then, with these two contrary voices in your head, what made you listen to the one that said, ‘Act as if.’ What pushed you in that direction?
Jim Duchesneau: Just do it, for goodness’ sake. Just sit down at your computer and there’s another concept I write about. It’s called ‘baby steps’, where you take one tiny little baby step at a time. We do that in everything. We don’t think we do it, but we do. From cleaning the sink…hey, there are dishes in the sink…you can’t clean them all in one fell swoop. That’s just a comparison. So, I went, okay, Jim, you can sit down and write a sentence. Now, many years ago when I first decided I wanted to see if I was a songwriter I did exactly the same thing. Now I recognize I did the same thing. I would sit down every morning at nine o’clock. I did this for five months, nine to three…my guitar in one hand, a blank piece of paper and a pen…and I would go okay, what do you want me to write?
Barbara Lewis: This is inspiring for people who want to be songwriters and don’t think they can. Did you not write a song that’s about taking small steps?
Jim Duchesneau: Yes, I wrote a song called Start With Something Small.
An excerpt from Jim’s song,
“Start With Something Small”
If you’re ever feeling low so down
And blue that you can’t even get up
To tie your shoes
Take a breath and count to
Any number you please
Do it over and over
‘till you feel some ease
Jim Duchesneau: So here I am, act as if, start with something small, and just see where it goes. If it doesn’t go anywhere, what have you lost, right?
Barbara Lewis: We could talk about every song because I think every one is powerful and your book wraps around those songs so beautifully, but let’s do that in our next interview. I want to ask you if someone came to you and said I’m suffering what you did. A terrible, suicidal depression. I don’t know what to do about it. What advice would you give somebody now that you’ve been through this?
Jim Duchesneau: I’ll give the advice and I’d give the advice to anyone listening to it to pass it on and pass it on is first of all, don’t isolate yourself. Don’t become silent, because the silence is all the thoughts going through your head. It narrows your possibilities. Reach out to someone. Try to reach out to a professional if you can. If it’s a friend…I actually, when I was in my worst situation I actually reached out to you. You were the only person…you’re literally the only person I intimated that something was wrong with me. You knew I wasn’t working. I wasn’t creating a whole lot, but you listened. That made a difference. So, speak to your G.P. Say, you know what, I think there’s something wrong with…I know there’s something wrong with me. I’m not my normal self. Everything feels dark around me. Or I’m very anxious. Or, I’m up and I’m down and it’s like I’m…it feels crazy to me. And say to the person is it possible to get a diagnosis of what I’m experiencing? You know if you break a leg and you think it’s broken what do you do? You get an x-ray. If you’re not feeling too well you go to a cardiologist and you go, Hey, there’s something wrong with my heart. If you’re having trouble seeing you go to an ophthalmologist and say I think my glasses aren’t working. But with mental health whoa we can’t talk about that one because first of all you think maybe they’ll lock me away…
Barbara Lewis: …and especially after this whole Covid time people are going to be suffering a lot. I think your message and your book, and your songs are going to be vital for a lot of people in the next couple of years. Is your book coming out soon?
Jim Duchesneau: Actually, yesterday, believe it or not it was yesterday late afternoon I received from my editor the second complete editing which brings the book to a point where now it can be taken to a publisher. So, I’m going to re-read it over the next week or two and then it’s a question of possibly finding a publisher. The songs, – I was so blessed to find a producer that was right for me about a year and a half to two years ago and I started working with him and it will be ready for publication soon. Keep your fingers crossed. And if you know anybody…anyone listening to this who is a tremendous publisher for mental health books, self-help books, email Barbara.
Contact Barbara here:
Barbara Lewis: To end this wonderful interview and thank you so much I want people to hear this gorgeous song, Take a Breath. It ends with kind of a meditation of taking a breath and I’ve listened to it so often and I love it. Thank you so much Jim. It was a great interview and I hope you’ll come back.
Jim Duchesneau: Thank you Barbara. Love you.
Barbara Lewis: Love you too.
You are listening to
An excerpt from the song,
“Take a Breath”
By Jim Duchesneau
Take a breath, breathe in
Give a breath, breathe out
Take a breath, breathe in
Give a breath, breathe out
Take a breath, breathe in
Give a breath, breathe out